# ETHChiangMai togETHer Tuesday at 4Seas DeSoc

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Source video: ETHChiangMai togETHer Tuesday at 4Seas DeSoc
Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LWmhT68dELJggunbvZUx1wRaQmFysEpp/view
Duration: 03:11:25
Transcribed: 2026-07-27 · deepgram nova-3 · PIT BULL harvest fleet v3

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[00:03] Hello, everyone. Hey. Hey. We're about to begin. So hello, everyone, and welcome to today's Together Tuesday. And thank you for being here. I see lots of people here, and someone's there somewhere. There's probably someone's out outside if someone come later. At the first glance,

[00:27] today might look like a regular together Tuesday, but today is actually something different. Today is not just a together Tuesday. Today is also a preset for Pong and Thinkers and Simply. And also, today is not a stand alone event. It's part of a longer conversation we're intentionally opening. So let me use one or two minute brief introduce what is Together Tuesday,

[00:50] especially for those joining us for the first time. I saw lots of fresh face. Together Tuesday is a weekly gathering at East My. It's not a conference. It's not a pitch session. It's not about promotion your project. It's actually about talk about discussion, highlight space where people can show up regularly to share what they're working on or what they're thinking right now and to spend spend together, we have a, like, light dinner. Also today, we have a small dinner.

[01:16] And some weeks are very technical, some are very philosophical, some weeks are simply being in the same room together. The key idea is continuity because communities don't form in one intense summit. They form through repetitions, trust, and shared ideas. So zoom out a little bit. I can see it here. So this is part of East Mai event. So what is East QMai? It's more of a hackathon and more of a summit. It's a long term Ethereum estate experiment.

[01:44] It's designed for multi week gathering that bring together builders, researchers, designers, and institutions, and local communities to explore how Ethereum is built, lived, and governed. The program of unfold in four four phases. We have boot camp, hackathon, summit, and on conference. For example, weekly community gathering, athon, public demo day, and as I said, our summit,

[02:08] allowing relationships, idea, and collaborations to develop over time rather than being an intense three or four days. So also each Qinmai emphasized human skill coordination, local context, and long term thinking. It treats the CRM not only as a technical system, but a social infrastructure that intersects with education, governance, culture, and everyday life. By situation, the program in Chiang Mai, a city where local culture, global mobility, and alternative filters already coexist.

[02:38] Is Chiang Mai serves as a test bed for how decentralized system can remain open, resilient, and grounded as they scale. Each part fits into the next. So actually starting tomorrow, the Istima Hackathon officially begins. So far, we've gathered more than a 100 hackers, developers, designers, researchers, and builders from all different background across countries and continents.

[03:01] The hackathon is not meant to be a closed bubble. If we're not hacking, we still encourage to talk to the team. Mentor, if you can or simply stay curious about what they are building right now. Because on the February 2, we'll host the hackathon demo day at the Chiang Mai University Convention Center, which is only around 300 meters from here. And the demo day is open to the public and it will take place in the afternoon. And luckily, I think there will be live streaming. You don't need to be part of a hacker to attend this. Everyone is welcomed.

[03:28] And then on the February 3, there's East Qinghua Future Summit, also at the Qinghua University Commission Center. And this year, the summit is focused at the future summit under the same make Ethereum a Cypherpunk again. I think you can see this logo all over the place. It's even on the wall. Because Ethereum was born not only as a technology, but as a Cypherpunk experiment and attempt to reimagine con coordination, trust, and power in the digital age.

[03:54] As also we move into 2026, Ethereum is no longer marginal. It's becoming global infrastructure. And that raises a necessary question. How do we preserve Ethereum and Cyberpunk so well scaling into planetary system? So the summit exists at this exact crossroad. Across the summit, we'll explore several connected threats. First human scale coordination, the pop up society, which we're looking at experiments like Zuzelu and other temporary or local communities. And what they teach us about living Ethereum, not just using it.

[04:24] Second, cyberpunk values as a culture, not as a cold. Privacy autonomy and the self custody are no longer fringe ideas. The question now is how this value survive where Ethereum becomes part of everyday infrastructure and everyday life. And third is institutional responsibility and then long term relationship. And Ethereum matures, who is responsible for its direction?

[04:47] What does credible neutrality mean at scale and how the institutions participate without flattened diversity or local agency? Finally, education and the Ethereum over decades designing system, not for hype cycles, but for generations. So while you guys can join our telegram group and follow us on x, we'll release the Luma register very soon. And the summit is not about the speculations about alignment between values, institutions,

[05:15] and the live reality theorem is in turn is entering. At Myanmar is not incidental. It's a city where local culture, global mobility, and alternative futures already coexist. So this is a brief introduction about tomorrow's hackathon and the summit we're gonna have. So on the entrance we have, I think we have QR codes everywhere. So just join the group and join the

[05:38] x and just keep updated. So let's go to today's speaker. Today, we have three speakers for the first part and we'll have a short break and then we may move to the cyberpunk and the thinkers assembly. This section ground our conversations looking into how Ethereum is building in different places and different thoughts, design, and philosophies. So now I'd like to introduce our first speaker

[06:02] and she represents the Philippine Ethereum Ecosystem. East Philippines is a community lead efforts connecting local builder, educators, and organizers in The Philippines while staying closely linked to the global Ethereum network. So let's welcome Ting and give us a short presentation about the ecosystem in Philippine and how they came together. Thank you.

[06:29] Yeah. How do I play my slides? You can sit here. Oh, okay. Okay. So I'm going to talk a bit about The Philippines, but before anything, I would like to say that it's very different from what you would have expected and what we expected as well.

[06:58] The realities in The Philippines is just adoption appears different in different forms. So, yeah, in The Philippines, nobody oh, Yeah. In The Philippines, nobody really enters the ecosystem.

[07:21] Nobody really enters crypto for decentralization, credible neutrality, and permission business. So we've gotten into crypto because we wanted to pay bills or we're looking for ways to evade taxation, all of those questions. So very practical people looking for practical solutions, and that's how we got into

[07:46] learning how to download wallets, how to how to interact with decentralized applications. We have very crypto native population. I'd say about 10 of the Filipinos already own crypto, about 12,000,000 of us, 12,000,000 plus. And it's not it's not mainly because we have informed financial decisions,

[08:12] but because we're forced to find ways to circumvent institutions and failures in our social structures. So yeah, we when we started ETHPH, we were starry eyed people who who are very into decentralization and we wanted to give away more power to the people. But as it turns out, as we interact more and more with the people who actually use crypto,

[08:38] we we got got the sober reality that people are looking for solutions to their problems. And yeah. That that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I think that taught people a lot of very basic things like how to how to interact with the with the crypto and and they built communities upon it. Eventually, they learned the values that

[09:07] that crypto represents. And I think that's important. So Yeah. And the good news is adoption happened anyway. This whatever the reasons are, 10% of Filipinos now own crypto

[09:34] and, we're growing rapidly. We're we're adapting it into payments, remittances. We're we're even at the our government is even adopting blockchain systems that are EVM compatible, so very interoperable with the Ethereum ecosystem. So our our crypto economy is predicted to grow about to about $114,700,000,000.

[09:58] That's how big our our informal economy is. So I would say that The Philippines have like 49.7% unbanked people. So these are people who are relying on informal economies and this these are people who are looking for practical solutions that either you might offer.

[10:39] Yeah. And we have institutional involvement as well. The government is not very averse towards blockchain. They actually actively seek they actively seek inputs from the citizens whether they implement it or not is another story, but the thing is there there are there's interest from from

[11:01] from upwards to downstream. So yeah. Now you can see Filipinos are very enthusiastic about adopting Ethereum and blockchain. But a lot of us a lot of us truly don't understand the full power of of decentralization.

[11:24] And a lot of us, even even though we don't understand it, we work with crypto native organization, not mere not maybe not as technical people, but we work as marketers. We work as business developer sales. So that's what Philippines is known for. We're we're more known for our soft skills than our technical skills. And, that that that creates a huge vacuum inside the country because a lot of these people who work for crypto native organizations wanted to adopt the technology inside the country and they don't have the technical backbone to actually implement it. And so that's why

[12:09] sorry. Yeah. So that's why we actually spent the whole 2025 bridging that gap. Yeah. So we did we did some education initiatives. We also initiate access gaps because not all of them can fly into places like this. A lot of you might might be taking for granted that

[12:39] attending conferences and events like this is some is also a matter of privilege, like having strong passports, having the capital to to be able to have the freedom to go to different places and learn different things. So many Filipinos don't have that. So at PH, what what we did is we went we went around the archipelago

[13:03] and bring bring the the global ideas in into the local. Yeah. We also did bridge some mental framework gaps. A lot of them don't understand what is cryptography and all of that. So we did we did some basic workshops for for that. And for the whole of 2025,

[13:33] we've grown so much that that's all we did. We did workshops. We did we did some activations in different islands, and it received a lot of positive positive feedback from education educational and government organizations because there is not a lot of low locally aware

[13:57] organization who is doing technical education on crypto. And We did it so much so that Ethereum Philippines became the ad hoc technical blockchain community of The Philippines. When you're part of ETH, people just assume that you understand how blockchain works and they ask you, they ask you questions regarding that. And

[14:21] I think that's important because, it's a multiplying force. When when you understand something, you teach others. And in The Philippines, the biggest infrastructure you will have is social. So if you have the social currency, the trust of whoever you're talking to, then it's easier to transfer knowledge. Yeah. It wasn't popular.

[15:12] As as I said, crypto communities in general are trading communities. They are very practical. They are asking what is this for. So yeah, the question is why are we doing it? Because somebody has to. And another another context about

[15:35] either in Philippines is that we're not just one cities. We have we have coordination problems because we are physically different islands and people cannot just travel to islands that easily given the economic constraints. And each region has their own flavor. They have their own culture, so it's as diverse as you can see. I I will introduce you to each of them. So this is Eth Mindanao who is our

[16:02] most active community. They have they are very active when it comes to building and producing startups in The Philippines, and there's not a lot of convincing to do when when it comes to adopting Ethereum in Mindanao. But but the thing is there are very they are crypto native, but there are very few people who who can actually actually program the things that that they wanna build.

[16:28] On the other hand in Manila is where all the deal makers are. If you if you're going to Manila, you're likely to have a lot of handshake do a lot of handshakes with many people and institutions as well. We often fly to Manila whenever, any organization is asking for our inputs when it comes to blockchain technology.

[16:58] And then there's also Cebu. Cebu is a full of developers who are actually blockchain averse, but is starting to warm up because they found out that Ethereum community actually has the technical backbone and and and the and full rabbit hole is just unraveling to them just this year.

[17:21] So this is when we did a huge open source festival in this in Cebu. It's actually the biggest in The Philippines and those those are the whole community there. Yeah. So adoption happens in different ways. Some some started with development, some some started with being users, and some started with just plain

[17:46] having your school require you to attend a certain event like in Baguio. So, my my call is if you want to see crypto from a different lens, if you want to see crypto from a social lens, from a practical lens, then, please meet us in The Philippines. Thank you so much. Alright. Thank you. What we see here is Ethereum coming ecosystem doesn't grow in isolation. Even we have come some constraints, but on the personal institution, on the educational level, it's all flourishing.

[18:23] And now let's welcome our second speaker is Rick from usdda.phi. Rick is currently working at open zipline with over six years of experiences auditing and securing major defy protocols and layer twos rather than focusing on the product. And today we're gonna talk a little bit about what's the motivation and behind it. And the security gaps and assumptions that still shape the industry today. This is a conversation about risk, trust, and the responsibility in DeFi. So please welcome Rick.

[19:02] How many here are DeFi users? Okay. Oh, not that many. Okay. So this if you're not DeFi users, this talk might be a little bit technical, but I hope hopefully you can get something out of it. So, my name is Rick. I am a security auditor at OpenZeppelin. I audit mostly frontline D five protocols and L twos like Uniswap, Aave,

[19:27] and, Arbitrum. They could sync optimism and the Eastern Foundation as well. So today I wanted to talk to you about putting my mom savings on chain. 2,300,000,000 was the amount of money that's stolen from the blockchain in 2025.

[19:53] And that's on average, that would be equivalent to about 1,200,000 moms living here in Chiang Mai. And in a total number, it would be around three the size of Chiang Mai moms together. And this graph shows you how many money was stolen on chain.

[20:15] This includes protocol hacks, includes social engineering of people's wallet being compromised, as well as all different kind of shenanigans on chain. If you, you know, if you're on chain, you probably know what I'm talking about. And this graph shows you

[20:38] the ongoing observation that we see from a security point of view that the crime on chain has evolved a lot lately from individual hackers to a group of hacker working together to recently we start to see, not that recently anymore, nation backed activities like the Lars group from North Korea, for example.

[21:03] This is quite concerning, to be honest, because we don't know in the future any other nation. So our, you know, oligarchies, for example for example, could be back up a bunch of hackers sitting somewhere in the dungeon and then try to steal money on chain. This is a dystopia that we actually quite feel. There's quite a few more worrying trends in the security space right now on chain. And these are the thing that we wanted to solve

[21:31] from as soon as possible, but I would like to bring it out so everyone here can be aware of of them. First of all, this year in particularly, we start to see OG protocols, OGD five protocols get hacked, namely Balancer and, YoungVault. These OG protocols are the one that we've been using for years. The community use them on a daily basis. I actually ordered the, Balancer v one and they're a great team. They're not malicious at all, but this still got hacked.

[22:02] No one was prepared for this. It's quite concerning. My personal guess is AI assisted as we see AI start to get more and more smart. And then we see them start to compose attack vectors on chain that we as human programmers usually don't tend to do. This is not a good news. And we've seen a rise of kidnapping in a physical way, which is really terrible. So we see people get kidnapped and abused for their,

[22:32] for their, passphrase, for the seed phrase. And this is bad because it is something that's hard for us to prevent from a on chain point of view because it's a quite individual and physical. And we're also seeing, Gresham's law plays quite often here. And it just basically means that if you have too many back actors in the space, the good actors is gonna get squeezed out. People wouldn't wanna play the game anymore. We start to see people publicly announcing on chain after a lot of years working on in the crypto space. They said, you know, I'm done with this space. I don't wanna continue anymore because

[23:10] too many scams, too many bad actors. It is not what I'm what I signed up for. So these are quite worrying from a security point of view. This is not the crypto that I personally signed up for when I start working crypto about seven years ago. So how can we solve this problem? We need to dive deep into the crypto beginning,

[23:34] the phil philosophy that we built crypto on to look for answers. If we look at the problem we currently have, basically speaking, we're taking a centralized power out of the society. Let's say the bank away. And then now everyone here are completely equal. No one has a special right or higher power than any other people.

[23:57] This is great because we can stop the bank from abusing that special high higher power that, you know, we don't want them to. Corruption is one of the most notorious problem human society faces right now, and we solve that problem. However, central power can also do good things in a sense. For example, they enforce orders. If your bank,

[24:21] credit card gets, you know, charged by a unknown vendor, you can actually call up your bank, say, hey, can you place a charge back? The money comes back straight to you. And then we don't have that on the blockchain. This is a problem. Arguably, it is a little bit irresponsible at the moment for me to to bring my mom's saving on savings on chain because she's gonna get hacked and there's no level of protection. And it is not something that I think it is responsible

[24:52] at all in this stage of where crypto is at. We look at how anarchism and like traditional small group of communes, how do they organize themselves without essential power? How do they even do order enforcement? We see that for small, smaller group, usually the order is enforced on a consensus level. Let's say, you know, we have a small commune and then if there's a bad actor, we all agree to eject them out and this guy's out, not part of our community anymore. And that is how it works. But this unfortunately doesn't work on a large scale.

[25:27] From an anarchism sort of point of view, we actually have seen that insurance, funny enough, it's been proposed as one of the ways to enforce order when there's no higher power. I don't have time to go into deep, about how this works, but I encourage you to go and have a read and it's very, very interesting. So

[25:50] based on that, I have a proposal of a experiment that I would like to to see in the crypto space. I like to build a stable coin that protects DeFi users. The way it works, it's fairly simple. So you use this stable coin. You build up a history. And your history is the longer history you have,

[26:13] the the more what we call cover score you accumulate as you use this stablecoin. Imagine as USDC or USDT, you use them, you build up a history of score. If any of your DeFi position is hacked, you could actually use this history to claim your loss from the protocol. So you get coverage out of that.

[26:36] For example, if you use Aave, you put your USD say USDC into Aave, you get your a USDC out as your LP token. If tomorrow Aave got hacked, your a USDC now worth nothing. You can give USD 8, the protocol, your a USDC, which was nothing and get reimbursed up to 80%

[26:59] of that USDC's value. So you get 80¢, up to 80¢ for every every, USDC you you put in. So this is one of the thing that we think could be quite interesting because it provides a level of protection. And also it's built on top of the history that usually your history does nothing. Your USDC,

[27:21] USDT history does nothing. It's not useful at all at this stage. And as you use, the more you use and the the more you get covered and it builds up a royal a loyalty for so for sort of the project following. And we like to build this in a permissionless way because we're crypto natives ourselves. And then

[27:43] so, we want this project to stick to the trust list manifesto as much as we can. And then we have partnered with a ZK coprocessor, team to compute the history completely off chain that's not related to our, facility. So let's say tomorrow if our project disappears,

[28:06] the whole thing would still function and work really well. And that would make it satisfy the walk away test that Vitalik, proposed. If this is gonna work out, it's gonna be a really exciting and playful future. Imagine this. If USDA is really big, it's covering a huge amount of DeFi,

[28:31] And then some DeFi protocol gets hacked for tens or hundreds of million, dollars. And everybody come to USDA to get reimbursement with their LP token. Now USD 8 sits on this pile of LP token that doesn't worth anything. However, if USDC or USD eight can recover those stolen funds,

[28:56] this pile of LP token all in a sudden has a huge amount of value that could worth up to hundreds of millions. And that incentive in a game theory way would push USD eight to go and chase those hackers on an ongoing basis for years to come. So USDA aid could be putting up million dollars bounty that's valid up forever.

[29:22] It could work with individual white hackers, law enforcement work with different countries, security agencies to chase those hackers ongoingly until we recover money from them because there's a financial incentive for the organization to to do. This would have changed how current currently the hacking recovery work

[29:48] because at the moment, if a protocol gets hacked and the the the money belongs to the user, the protocol themselves have very little incentives to keep chasing them if it gets too difficult because even if they recover those money, those money doesn't go to the protocol. It goes to all these users. And now we have an entity potentially has a huge amount of debt accumulated

[30:12] from the hackers and that would keep chasing those hackers forever. This also would have put off any more hacking activities while the hackers know they will be forever chased by someone. So hopefully, through this experiment, we can keep my mom saving on chain and safe so my mom can yield, 8% than her bank currently offering her maybe 1.5%.

[30:39] But this is a big dream that is not gonna happen without all your participation. So I encourage you to follow along and, join our telegram and follow our X and then hopefully we can make it a good experiment. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Security often fades into background when it works and become fundamental when it fails. And so that's Brace, our our third speaker.

[31:13] Our third speaker is Daniel, a core contributor to SUS Protocol. SUS Protocol is a decentralized prediction market protocol. We're thinking coordination through cryptographic and on chain mechanism. So today's talk is titled a game design for good resilience. This is about how incentive design and game mechanism can help create more reverse and resilience decentralized system,

[31:38] not just economically, but socially. So yeah. Thank you. Let me get this off. Is it? No. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Should I wait?

[32:06] It's okay. Like, the this video is prepared by the, Remotion. I just keep some scripts and even that scripts was, created by some agent, you know. So Oh, yeah. So, you know, that's, maybe not exactly the same as I said. Especially that the previous converse the previous, like, speech used a lot of terminologies

[32:29] I want to use. So, you know, I I I need to, like, refresh my mind to say something, you know, which is kind of, like, probably new. Yeah. I'm building a decentralized predictive market. At the very beginning, that's kind of, like, six weeks ago. Actually, the purpose is not building a decentralized predictive market. At that time, I'm just thinking that, you know, as a as a one ledger,

[32:55] blockchain doing a really good job. I have a financial background. I know how efficient this is. But, like, what about other things? Right? What about other things that being, like, recorded in in this ledger? I'm thinking about, like, you know, what about, is there anything which is really valuable? We can call it, like, a choose. It's like a historical book. For some reasons, people are willing to put it on chain. And someday, for example, like, we distinct it and somebody

[33:22] get this note, hard disk, or whatever, the storage facility, he will find out, oh, yeah. This is interesting. Some people are are, like, you know, showing their intent of of of something. Then, like, we we pick a name. SUS is the name. Yeah. Rim Rimbo, what what what is this? Sorry. Oh, I should probably play it. Anyways,

[33:51] SUS is a ancient English name of a of a of a fact, and we started to think about what can kind of a fact probably be be valuable. I have a d five background. So the first thing is also, like, the the the the previous speaker say this about the, you know, the security. Right? Because once there is a there is a hacking happen, that's definitely a choose. It's a purely 100

[34:16] pure on chain choose. Maybe it's not, you know, it's it's a synthetic, but it's it's choose happen. And we look into it. Yeah. Still, there were there were some problem, like, you know, this hack happening in this block. And then, like, there was something called free auto attack, if you're familiar with the predictive market. So how to solve that? So we think about, oh, yeah. They they can they can actually can solve this very well.

[34:41] So we can set up a a something and, a mechanism, then we can introduce a retroactive, settlement, which means that any trade off the bat yeah. This is not a good idea to use phone. If the trade is happened off the diode block, this those will be like a you know, will be will be returned. Yeah. So so this is how, like, we get into the the the ZK. And, gradually, we found out right now, ZK

[35:14] to for developers like us actually give us a much flexible. I will mention something else later. Much flexibility to, thinking in this, office system, but without, you know, sacrifice of the decentralization, you can put something off chain. Maybe right now, it's not that, you know, efficient to do it on chain, but you can use, like, ZK to link it.

[35:38] So, yeah, we are a, actually, we are quite a new project, but we can show what, we have right now. We are quite new. We haven't launched yet, but right now, we are, like, corporate with a project called Previous. Maybe you guys heard of that, to working on how to realize what we call the ZK adjudicator. If you are familiar with the predictive market, you know that there is Oracle. Right? People rely on Oracle, this kind of data. But we extended this role. It's a adjudicator.

[36:09] It provide the services not only to, be a charger to show you, this happened or not, but also give you a proof what time it happened. Yeah. And the the story, like, continue to to to grow. People are so at that time, we say, okay. We are trying to build a, on chain choose layer, But people don't understand what's that. And then, like, oh, okay. Yeah. So people say, what they're doing is, like, decentralize the predictive market. Okay. It's fine. We accept that. We're building a decentralized predictive market.

[36:42] At the end, what do we want to want this to happen is still, people can create predict the market, you know, in a really, really permissionless way, 100% permissionless way, and they're ready to create some market which somebody cares. Not like nowadays, right, there is all, like, you know, c p CPI, Fed,

[37:07] president, NBA, Alacan Bay, by the way, but, like, it's not for everyone. Right? We have lot of different, like, sports. People have concerns, but there is no way basically to record it. It's very hard to record it, but people, have concern of that. So other people can also find out if. Right? And, I know that sometime,

[37:29] for example, in this room, we have some, like, shared, you know, shared, topics. We are kind of, like, you know, be interested of it. So, I think there is we we can yeah. Through our platform, they say, you can actually can yeah. I'm running out of the topic, actually.

[37:51] Sorry. Okay. Back to we solved the some some problem, but there is one thing which is very important. So this is this is a topic today. When we designed the whole, like, incentive system, first of all, if you want to be permissionless, you have to let all the actors to join. Not only, like, you know, selected one, not to judge who is good and who is bad. Today, there are a lot of, like, you know, arbitragers and PVP traders on,

[38:22] you know, different platform. Yeah. Some sometimes the problem is, you know, they will eat up the real users profit. Right? That happens from time to time. But yeah. We our design principles is we let everybody go, but we need to find out a way that everybody can stay for longer. Because he want to stay for longer time, he will think a little bit different way. So the most important, role here

[38:48] is what we call the creator. How important it is? The whole protocol's revenue, 80% of it will go to the the creator. There is a launch pad. There is creator. So people might think, okay. This is not a pump fund. It's it's not. If you think deeply, it's it's not a pump fund. Because the long term main coin has low has no value. This is the first thing. But long term, pretty good market has a lot of value. Right? We are talking about the decentralized,

[39:19] you know, social, you know, social socialization or social, like, application. We already have a lot of web to social application. We have ready people, you know, CP people talking about sports there and some other forms, but they trade on on predict on per party market. But now, like, you know, if you can create the market, which, can attract,

[39:42] the same, you know, people with the same kind of lack of concern, there will be, like, also, possibility of social. So the creator is is, very, very important, and, they are the risk taker. The this is the second point that they are diff you know, the whole idea is different from, like, PongFang. They need to provide the liquidity. If you guys, like, researched or looked at the LMSR,

[40:08] you know, algorithm, a m m org algorithm or oh, I dropped this. I just actually, it's it's it's very beautiful. There is, like, a max loose. So the creator will, like, provide the liquidity to cover that that loose. And if he, you know, operate this market, you know, successfully,

[40:31] he will be rewarded of the future trading fees, including the trading trading fee from the from the on chain on chain odd book. On chain odd book is another topic. Right? Like, people want to use be user experience similar to poly market, but in the meantime, they want to protect the real users real users' value.

[40:54] How we do is, like, you know, we have two trading value. One is the one, for those people who really care about this topic. They can trade there. They have their, like, concern, interest, or whatever. They want to express their opinions, but there was some kind of, like, a limitation. For example, we have kind of, like, a fund lockup. So those arbitrate trade traders, they will not come here. But in the meantime, we welcome them to trade on the on the on chain outlook,

[41:21] which means that they can also contribute to the to the creator. So lot of things there. For example, there there there should be like a garden row. Right? Once there was something which probably not not good, the garden row need to come out. Should it be a centralized role or not? And is it optional or not? I think the things we found out is, you know, again, it's not like the main coin market.

[41:50] It's like the reputation is very important. So the creator most likely will think about, like, okay. I just, like, you know, take maximum outcome from, like, one market or I can, like, be a professional creator in this area for a long time. So I can organize lot of, different, particular market in in this area. So this is, what we bet on. If,

[42:14] there is a gaming mechanism which can, you know, from the time point of view, people can stay there for a longer time. So they will think think about for the for the long long long term. So it's not too bad on, like, you know, the bad actor or the or the, you know, the good actor. It sounds like, very, you know, in theory, level, but,

[42:39] let me show something here. Yeah. So the reason I can stand here to introduce is not because of we came out to have this idea. We have to build a lot of things because today, people's requirement is is very high. Right? People want a similar user experience compared to,

[43:03] compared to, like, a polling market. People don't want to sacrifice, like, too much. So what we can provide is, okay, this is simple. You can really create a predict market in thirty seconds, even less. This is on the base Sepolia test net. So, you know, the the market is already created, and we think from the view of

[43:27] those frequent traders, Arbitrager, because they will contribute actually the portal fee to the creator to encourage them. Right? So we also want them in. We don't say, okay. You guys don't provide you. You you can provide value. Right? So we provide the SDK. We have done lot of, you know, transactions, more than 200,000

[43:49] actually to finalize the the tick book design. But if you ask me, I will not say that on the high frequency trading side, it's has the same level of of of chain, but it's okay. Again, thanks for the for the z for the z k. We probably I'd want that, like, you know, we can think about if if it's necessary or user need that, we can do those, you know, only the old book of calculation of chain and prove

[44:18] on chain. Our system will be much more simpler than, you know, point point point market. Yeah. That's that's my time is over. Yeah. That's that's that's about the product. It's called SUS. I am leaving Chiang Mai. So, yeah, I think it's very proud to introduce this project to the Chiang Mai community.

[44:44] We can communicate later. So, therefore, the video is not you know, should not use a phone to play it. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Daniel. Thank you to all the three speakers. Well, we just heard a really different the way of building like local ecosystem, security assumptions,

[45:07] and resilience through design gaming. And now we're gonna have a fifteen minutes break. And after that, we're gonna move to pre cypherpunk and thinker assembly where we're have a little slight adjustment. Like, we have a panel with Kurt, Vitalik, and John. And, yeah, we'll start in fifteen minutes and you guys can grab something to eat. No. Grab something to drink.

[45:30] And we have a small portion of dinner and starts around 06:00. And yeah. That's it. Just like rest a little bit. So this is the registration for the East Timois Summit. And if you guys would like to join on the February 3, just scan the code and join our Luma.

[50:32] And it's full day of the February 3. And on the middle is our x account and on the very right side is our Telegram group. What was Rosalind do? My book to city,

[55:55] based community, build new technology, rooted in values we hold true. What does Uzalu mean to you? I see beauty, simplicity, and militia. Organized sustainably flight for longevity. Conversations on de la deed,

[56:19] how we impact society under the zoozalu society. Gather you and I, sharing dreams side by side in the TV of my sky.

[57:14] Gather you and I, sharing dreams side by side. For

[58:51] those of you who haven't seen the Zuzalu library next door, it's open. You should go check it out. Hello?

[01:00:00] Hello? Alrighty.

[01:00:27] Welcome back and we're gonna start our second session. This session is pretty cypherpunk thinkers assembly rather than previous focus on our projects and ideas. This part is more about history, long term thinking, and ideas about cypherpunk. And we are on here to have it with Helc join us in person and Kurt Pan and Jian,

[01:00:49] and they will lead with the panel discussion. And this session will last about one hour and a half and we'll have one hour and twenty minutes and we'll have twenty minutes for audience open questions. But if you if we're gonna ask question, please raise your hand and please keep it short and tight and like so we have can have more questions. So I'll pass the mic to

[01:01:14] to John like okay. We're gonna start. Hello. So I'm going to ask a a few questions first. And and today is about cyberpunk and thinker assembly. So, for for the audience here, I I think many of them, don't have a very clear

[01:01:43] idea of cyberpunk, and some of them might have some knowledge about it. And so can you explain what's cyberpunk? And also, what what's your first time experience on cyberpunk? Yeah. So the Cypherpunk, as an idea actually, yeah, started long before Ethereum,

[01:02:07] long before Bitcoin, really, yeah, in the nineteen eighties, and in the, nineteen nineties. And, like, originally, yeah, they were working on technology as, like, very early forms of digital cash. So David Choms, e cash, for example, which, like, tried to protect people's privacy so that, you know, like, even the bank could not see your transactions.

[01:02:31] There was a lot like PGP, like, basically, yeah, like, encrypted mess the very first form of, like, encryption, and the encryption is, of course, completely normal now. Right? But but back then, it was a very new idea. Like, basically, people working on this this collection of tools that tried to use computers and

[01:02:55] cryptography, in particular, to create a Sorry. Mhmm. Can I do it a bit louder? Oh, okay. Is this better? Yeah. Yeah. To create an Internet that's better at protecting people's privacy, better at protecting people's freedom, better at being open to global

[01:03:17] participation, at resisting attempt attempts to censor it. And, like, these were things that a lot of people were starting to think about in the nineteen nineties. And then it's like, I think since then, a lot of those ideas have made their way into, like, various parts of

[01:03:40] more mainstream software. Right? So, like, for example, it's very normal now that the Internet is encrypted. Right? Like, HTTPS is there by default. Also, encrypted messaging is, I think, finally winning this decade. More and more people are using, you know, like, Signal and is, like, the most popular one. Other mess other messaging apps that are actually encrypted. And so, like, the company that runs it can't just, like, read all of the private messages that you're

[01:04:13] sending to everyone. And then also, of course, you know, in the February, we saw Bitcoin. Right? And Bitcoin was this, like, end of this, like, thirty year journey of trying to create, like, some form of inner like, properly Internet native money. Right? And, like, really, like, b money, David Choms project in 1982

[01:04:38] was the very first one. And then or sorry. That was the e cash. Right? And then there was b money by Wei Dai in the late nineteen nineties. Then there was, like, you know, reusable proofs of work, the the bit gold, these ideas from Nick Sabo and from Halafinny. And then finally, yeah, like Satoshi had the put all of these different pieces together, the blockchain, the decentralized consensus

[01:05:04] using proof of work, the chain of transactions. And with Bitcoin, the yeah. This like, the whole, like, cryptocurrency space started. Right? And then four years later, of course, you know, Ethereum came, and then the blockchain space started growing very quickly. I think one

[01:05:27] interesting thing that happens though is that there was this interesting kind of flip of the priorities that people had. Right? Because if you look at e cash in 1982, and if you look at all of the, like, digital cash systems people were trying to make in the nineteen nineties, They were private, but they were but they were not decentralized. Right? Bitcoin

[01:05:49] and, like, Ethereum also, it's decentralized, but it's not private. Right? And the reason why that flipped So why the Bitcoin is not private? Yes. Because it it it had to be decentralized. Right? Basically, yeah, like, for for something like this to survive, it needs to be, yeah, it needs to be decentralized and not depend on one issuer. Right? But

[01:06:13] we did not have the technology to make something decentralized and private at the same time. All of the cryptography we knew for making something private, it depended on a central issuer. And the technology, like, the technology that allows both at the same time called ZK SNARKs. And it it existed in these, like, very theoretical academic forms since the nineteen nineties, but it was always,

[01:06:40] like, extremely difficult in practice. Like, if you took the algorithms from 1995 and you tried to, like, actually make one of them, it would take, like, five hours on a big machine. And it did not really become viable until basically the mid two thousand and tens and Zcash launched in 2016. Right? And so a big reason why I think we're talking about some of these older ideas again is that now,

[01:07:04] like, privacy is actually possible again. Right? And a lot of these newer Ethereum applications are actually trying to, like, bring some of those, older ideas back in. Kodo, can you also share your experience about your first experience about, Cyberpunk? I think as Vitaly said,

[01:07:27] the eye what I might suffer from woman is by the Leaky Snark. That that technique. It's It's basically, it's originally from the academic area, like the PCP things kind of like like that. But

[01:07:49] I think quickly it can be integrated into the practical ecosystem like Azura. And it can make it more scalable, more we can have more privacy in this. So I'm very promising

[01:08:12] in this technique. So I just to take it all more about the spirit original of it. And and I think it's just the the cypherpunk spirits. And during the nineteen nineteen nineties, I think. And I think that spirit

[01:08:35] can still benefit us in this area. So My first Cyberpunk, experience was was using BitTorrent to download movies from the Internet.

[01:09:01] That feels, guilty, but also very exciting. Yeah. Cool. Cypherpunk is a combination of cypher and punk. So cypher is the technology and punk is the cultural part. And Berlin is has the community

[01:09:25] of sub most most vital community of cyberpunk, I I think. Yeah. I I think the cipher yeah. The cipher is original from Latin or the Greek. Greek. Yeah. It's Greek. It's just a No. Actually Arabic, I think. Okay. Cool. But it's just

[01:09:49] a kind of symmetric encryption scheme. It's a it's a you can call it a cipher and the punk, you know, the idea is you just need the anti it's anti establishment moment. It's about rebellion. Yeah. Rebellion of something

[01:10:12] and be cool and be very proud of privacy. And so the cyberpunk is a combination of both of the technique and the cultural area. Right? So, Vitaly, in your article about if you run Cyberpunk again,

[01:10:36] so you shared about the stories of the Berlin's Cyberpunk community and also the restaurants that accept Bitcoin. Can you share about the your your experience there and Yeah. And the the culture of the Mhmm. Of this Cypherbank people? Yeah. Have you ever paid with, like, Bitcoin or ETH at a restaurant, by the way?

[01:11:03] No. You have? Yeah. Where? In Prague. Oh, in Prague. Okay. In in yeah..com. And Okay. Can it be done in Chiang Mai? Mhmm. No. I don't think so. Mhmm. Yeah. I think this is something that actually people really tried

[01:11:26] to push back in 2013. Right? When like, basically, in Berlin, the thing that was really special was there was this district in Berlin in Kreuzberg where the, yeah, the owner of one of the restaurants, Jorg Platzer, he was a Bitcoin fan. And so he convinced, like, half the restaurants within 200 meters of him. Like, I think about, like, 10 of them and then, like, plus some more and then plus, like, some other types of stores

[01:11:59] to start accepting Bitcoin for payments. And so I visited for a week and, like, for a week, basically, about half my meals, they were paid with Bitcoin. And, like, in some ways, it was almost kind of like a very early precursor to, like, pop up cities. Right? It's Yeah. But I think what ended up happening there, right, is that the

[01:12:22] yeah. Like, back then, the, yeah, like, other sort of non Bitcoin and digital payment systems, they were still, like, very bad quality. They were high had very high fees. They were inconvenient. And the Bitcoin fees were also very low. And then since then, like, the like, that whole scene, I think, basically got killed because,

[01:12:44] like, on the one hand, the digital systems did get somewhat better and, on, like, the centralized digital systems. And on the other hand, the because of the Bitcoin block size issues, the transaction fees got too high. And later, the transaction fees got too high on Ethereum also. Right? And so when that happened, then Bitcoin and Ethereum,

[01:13:10] Basically, yeah, like, Bitcoin stops being that effective for, like, small scale peer to peer payments. And this is actually, yeah, like, one of those problems that I think right now is, like, finally solved. Like, for the right now, Ethereum, for example, is extremely cheap. Right? Like, you can send, like, simple transactions for under 1¢ often and

[01:13:33] even complex ones for under 5¢ often. And and so we're, like, back to the kinds of prices we had in, you know, like, 2013. Right? And this is basically, I think I mean, a big part is that we have like, the the amount of transaction space on the chain has increased by more than a fact I think a factor of 10 since the beginning. Right? And

[01:14:02] and, actually, this year, it's plans to increase by another factor of five. So that's some and like, we're planning to continue increasing Ethereum's scale even more. Right? And so I think all of these technologies that we have in the February that in Ethereum that we did not have before, like, they're a good reason to try to, like, take a lot all of these earlier ideas and and and really try to bring them back.

[01:14:35] And in Berlin, there is also the c base hacker house and KS Computer Club. And and do you find any other interesting things in the cyberpunk community there? And why do they gather and make enjoy this moment and keep the culture? Berlin actually has many

[01:14:57] interesting things. Right? Like, the kinds of companies in crypto or even in tech just general tech that are based there, I think, are just all super interesting. They tends to be, like, a very yeah. I mean, like, values and mission driven. They a lot of them really care about privacy. Like, the city is also, like, very strong artistically.

[01:15:20] I I mean, I, like, read some, like, history articles that basically claims that's, like, one of the reasons why is basically because the split the city was, like, split in half, and there was the whole situation after the, you know, like, the second world war with the wall. And so all the big companies, they, yeah, I mean, like, moved out because it was too inconvenient.

[01:15:42] And, like, Berlin itself, basically, yeah, you know, no big companies. And and then eventually, when things got better, it was, like, fairly cheap. A lot of a lot of artistic people also moved in. And it's, like, one of these situations where, like, the national capital is also, like, not the com real really the commercial capital. And,

[01:16:06] you know, that's like, even the nontechnical scene. Right? If you just, like, walk along the street, like, you see political graffiti and, like, people, you know, like, talking about the need to stop climate change. You know, you see it here, like, people protesting all kinds of government actions saying, you know, like, people, you know, like, talking about, like, the freedom to, like, have your own lifestyle and, like, all of these things. And

[01:16:31] I think in technology, the principles like, the the ideals are very similar. And so, you know, you I I I think you see a lot of that in, the kinds of Ethereum and crypto projects that are there in the even though, like, the kinds of events that run there, like, they yeah. Like like, they're the like, if there's a European conference that's talking about cyberpunk,

[01:16:58] probably it's either in Berlin or in Prague. Yeah. So but, you know, there's a lot of interesting things there. So it's a city of all kinds of punks? Yes. Yeah. Do you think Chi Minh be the next Asian version of the party to be a cyberpunk city. That's Is that promising?

[01:17:21] I mean, for and it it looks promising so far. So, you know, four CS is doing a good job. Yeah. Solarpunk, Solarpunk City. Yes. How how do you see that actually yeah. The difference between these, like, different types of punks. Right? Because, you know, there's cypherpunk, there's solarpunk, there's a lunarpunk. Yeah. There's many others. Like Yeah.

[01:17:48] Many punks. A thousand society of punks. Yeah. I I think these are all the movement against power and the movement we cause more freedom. Mhmm. Yeah. We and we claim our identity and sovereignty. Mhmm. Yeah.

[01:18:10] When when did you, like, encounter the, yeah, like, either the Cypherpunk, like, movements or ideas for the first time? It was 2012. Mhmm. I joined the the p to p committee. There was a group of people in Node. Js. Mhmm. And they are doing a lot of WebRTC and DHT stuff. Mhmm. And so and they they have a lot of distribute teach me a lot about the distributed system. Mhmm. Then I go to Berlin for a p two p conference. Mhmm. What

[01:18:43] what did you find interesting about it? The first time I find they are just they are crazy people, but they have awesome crazy ideas. And and I I find that we are a small group of people in the world that know some truth that no other people hold. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I met several point ideas.

[01:19:10] As I said, it's in the academic area. Like, I'm a researcher in cryptography. So the cryptography is a worry in historic, some ideas in the tower, something like that. But it's I don't think it has much

[01:19:35] impact on the society structure. So I just dig it in and to found this moment in the nineteen nineties, and I think it's a very the first impression is that's cool, man. So and also I would like to learn

[01:20:03] what's the how the Cypherpunk culture affected you when you were creating or designing Ethereum? Yeah. So in Bitcoin's early days, I think one of the really interesting things about it is that it was this,

[01:20:25] like, very strong intellectual scene. There were a lot of people from these, like, cryptography, computer science oriented cypherpunk movements there. There were also people who were looking at it from the perspective of economics and and, you know, like freedom of money Mhmm. And inflation and, like, let's make a neutral currency that, like, can't be arbitrarily inflated by any

[01:20:54] amount. And, I mean, there were a lot of other ideas too. There were I mean, I remember there was this thing called, like, Project Venus, which was doing a resource based economy. And, like, that's probably even, like, closer to communism than capitalism. And so, you know, you have, like, all kinds of different people mixing. Right? And to this like, I think this early can be Bitcoin community maybe before

[01:21:18] about 2013 was, like, a mix of all of all of these things. Mhmm. And then and Ethereum, I, like, really, yeah, started from, like, realizing that people wanted to do more things on the blockchain, but you can't just keep making a new blockchain every time there is a new application. And so instead, you put in a programming language, and so anyone can like, once the blockchain exists, anyone can do, like, any application that they want on top of it. Right?

[01:21:49] And Like, the user in the universe. Yes. Exactly. And the yeah. And then Ethereum started, and, actually, I think, like, around that time was the time that, like, the crypto community started really splitting into different pieces. Right? So there was a like, even Bitcoin, it's at the same time stopped being one tribe. Right? It split into, you know, like, small blocks who basically said that the number of transactions needs to, like, stay small so anyone can download

[01:22:18] the and verify the blocks. But in exchange, it means that, like, be because there's few spaces for transactions, the transaction fees go very high. There's big blockers who, you know, prefer, like, who believe anyone should be able to send a, yeah, transaction. But that means the blocks get too big and so not everyone can download and verify the chain. And then those two ended up, like, splitting. Then there was Ethereum, and then there were other blockchains like BitShares.

[01:22:45] And so the movements, like, really branched out quite a lot. And and and then, of course, the Zcash in 2016 was, like, the one that's was really good at, like, carrying the privacy torch Yeah. The whole time. Yeah. Yeah. So but then,

[01:23:08] like, Bitcoin was not the first, you know, like, decentralized technology I had used. Like, I definitely, you know, had a bit used BitTorrent before. I was, you know, like, interested like, I I had used, you know, like, Tor and, like, some of these Internet privacy tools. In the 2000 era? Like, maybe about, like, 2005, 2008. Okay. I think in 2000, I was, like, still a tiny kid. I had

[01:23:33] no idea about any of this. And then yeah. Like, Bitcoin is this, like, really powerful thing because it just, like, took all of those interests and it combines them together. But then I think the problem is that it succeeded at doing that as a community, it did not really succeed as a technology because Bitcoin, like, as a technology, it was just like, it's it's so limited because it only lets you move money. And with the small blocks, like, yeah, the it only, yeah, lets people do us

[01:24:07] do a few transactions. Right? And but then, you know, like, now we're like, I think we're seeing this, like, kind of growth of all of these different technologies at the same time. Mhmm. Yeah. I noticed that you you you post many post about the scale scalability problem.

[01:24:32] We the the progress over the last few years in the Israel scalability. And I think it's origin cause a trilemma of the Mhmm. Problem. Mhmm. It's a you cannot do the you cannot have the scalability,

[01:24:56] the the performance thing, and the security, and the decentralization at the same time. Mhmm. But you said it it's at some extent, it's Mhmm. It totally solved by the the k u the progress of the the KUM and the the peer desk thing.

[01:25:20] So can you explain more about this kind of thing? Oh, Tridimar. Yeah. Yeah. So the way I I look at it is I think you can compare, like, Ethereum, like, it almost is today and where it's going to, like, two different things. Right? You can compare it to Bitcoin, and you compare it to BitTorrent.

[01:25:46] And with BitTorrent, right, it's decentralized. It's extremely scalable. Huge numbers of terabytes pass through it every day. Alright? But BitTorrent does not have consensus. Right? It's they're like it does not solve the double spending problem. It has no guarantees on, like, what order messages were sent and and received.

[01:26:08] And so you cannot use, like, something like BitTorrent and, like, build money on top of it. Right? Or, you know, you cannot you cannot use it and, like, build NFTs or a financial market or even a game, like, complex. Right? Now Bitcoin, on the other hand, it has consensus, but it achieves the consensus by requiring every node to process every single transaction.

[01:26:33] And BitTorrent does not do this. Right? And BitTorrent, like, computer only sees a very tiny fraction of all of the activity. Right? But in Bitcoin, everyone sees everything, but you have a consensus. Right? And so, basically, you think of it as, you know, like, Bitcoin is over here. Right? And you have, like, high consensus but low scalability, BidsOrient is over here. You already have high scalability, but you have a low consensus. How do you go here? Right? How do you have

[01:27:04] consensus and high scalability? And ZKS and ARCs, you know, technology that lets you create cryptographic proofs that a large amount of computation happens where you can verify the proof without seeing the computation yourself. Like, that really completely solves this for computation. Because if you have a big computation,

[01:27:28] you can split it into many pieces. And then like BitTorrent, you can, like, solve each piece separately, and then you can combine the pieces at the end. And and and, like, everything is verified. And then for data, there was to achieve consensus on large amounts of data, there was this technology called Pure DOS, which allows everyone to randomly download only a few chunks of the data.

[01:27:54] And then there and so with those two things together, right, basically, Ethereum can have, like, very high capacity without the same kinds of limitation or very high capacity with, like, still having strong consensus at the same time. Right? So

[01:28:17] that's, like so basically, yeah, know, you the trilemma, it was never, like, a mathematical theorem. Right? There was no formal proof. And, and so now, like, it's, like, basically being solved. Right? And so, like, these two technologies peer does is already running on Ethereum today. And, the ZKs and Arcs for Ethereum blocks, they there is a, like, beta version of them that is usable,

[01:28:43] and we still need maybe two or three more years of work to, make sure that it's really secure. And then we can start scaling much more, based on that. So, like, basically, in both of those areas, a lot of improvement. And in the, cyberpunk part of Ethereum, you you choose ZK, the zero knowledge

[01:29:08] tech stack. Mhmm. And also you as the core component of Ethereum. Mhmm. So can you can you tell us about, how do you think about ZK and why do you think it's, it's so important? So zero knowledge, proofs, they let you prove

[01:29:32] the that you know the result of some computation without without see like, needing to see, like, the input to the computation. And also verifying the proof is much faster than running the computation. Right? And so it has a privacy use case and it has a scalability use case. Right? So, like, for example, right, if you have

[01:29:57] passport, like any modern passport, it has, like, the chip on it. Right? And so today, there exist a there exist tools that let you take your passport, make a, yeah, zero knowledge proof that proves that you're a citizen of the country you're from, and you could give me that proof and I could verify it, but the proof does not reveal anything else. It does not reveal your name. It does not reveal your age, you know, like, your face. All it tells me is is

[01:30:23] what country you're from. Or even you could say, well, I want to prove that I have a passport from some country that's not North Korea. Right? And that's the only thing he wants to prove. You can also do that. So this is like the privacy use case. Right? The scalability use case is like okay. So for example, right, recently, Elon announced that he is,

[01:30:46] you know, making the Twitter algorithm open source. Right? And, you know, in theory, this is really nice. Right? Because if the algorithm is open, then anyone can go, like, run it and anyone can go verify. Basically, yeah, you know, like, what are the actual computations happening? Is this biased? Is this, treating different people and their opinions fairly?

[01:31:10] But in reality, right, it's, like, you know, there's always the question of, like, well, how open is it? And, like, it's not really yet like, ultimately, yeah, you know, like, even if he publishes all the code, there's no evidence that that's actually the code that's being run. Right? And so if he wants to do something like this and, like, have it be really robust, then what you do what you can do is you can

[01:31:38] publish a hash of your algorithm and then publish zero knowledge proofs that prove that the con all of the outputs of Twitter, basically, yeah, every single response that's being made by the server, like, all of the yeah. Like, what timeline you see in what order is the result of running that algorithm on all of the messages that people send. And then, like, it can also can like, put put up a hash of, like, all all of the all of the messages. Like, basically, yeah, you know, like, who posted what, who voted, or, like, what votes would there were at what time. And then maybe, like, one year later,

[01:32:17] you know, you'd be able to release the algorithm, also release, like, some anonymized, like, version of, like, what all of the messages are. And then you'd be able to see the like, what the algorithm is, and you would you you but, like, all that time, you have proofs that prove that the algorithm that later gets released is exactly the algorithm that was, used to determine what each person sees.

[01:32:40] And so this is, like, this could be really powerful for, I mean, like, making the, the Internet, like, kind of more transparent, you know, like, in in in in a good way, yeah, to make making it more trustable and all of these things. Right? And, like like, zero knowledge this is a a zero knowledge proofs for scalability use case also. Right? Because, like,

[01:33:07] all of Twitter is a huge amount of computation. Right? You're not you're not going to be able to run this algorithm on your laptop. But if they make a zero knowledge proof, you will be able to verify that proof even on a phone, even on a smartwatch. Like, the proofs are that tiny. So this is a powerful technology. Right? And it has a huge amount of use cases both on the blockchain because

[01:33:31] on the blockchain, like, by default, everything is public. Right? And so the this is, like, the big trade off you have. Right? It's like you gain consensus, but you'll lose scalability, you'll lose privacy. And zero knowledge proofs, they let you put hashes of information on chain instead of putting the actual information. And so they give you back scalability. They give you back privacy.

[01:33:53] And then also off chain, they just have such a huge number of different use cases. So I'm, you know, I'm continue to be very excited about Ziggy's narcs. I think their use will increase a lot over the next five years. Sorry. This one. I think from there's a very interesting

[01:34:17] aspect about the Leakest NARC, which is Leakest NARC is something you have to generate to the proof very hardly. You you need to many effort to put into it to generate proof. But once the proof has been published, generated and published, and the

[01:34:41] whole world can verify it very, very cheaply. So there is some asymmetric in here. And the same time, the AI, the LLM, the large language model, is something like you generate the response

[01:35:05] very cheaply, but there are some humiliation here. So maybe you cannot verify that the factor many quickly. So there's some interesting symmetry in this tool kind of technology.

[01:35:29] Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I I think they can provide us the super give us the superpower of proving things and keeping the secrets. Yeah. Yeah. The we call it the witness, which is the secret we don't want to explore to the world. So I think in the original cyberpunk

[01:35:53] manifesto or the cryptanarchical manifesto, there is there was what's the zero knowledge in that manifesto in the nineteen eighties. So but at that time, the that this technology is not very

[01:36:17] mature. It's it's just a baby. So today, we can maybe we can reimagine the cyberpunk, the original cyberpunk vision in the line of the newly developed, like, snark technology

[01:36:41] in this area. And for the future for your vision on Ethereum, how will Ethereum keep keep itself a cyberpunk and how we how we should we keep the culture and the community, safe. Mhmm. Yeah. Instead of being being

[01:37:07] hijacked by by other power power men like Elon Musk. Yeah. So for Ethereum, the blockchain to be cypherpunk, I think, it needs to be decentralized, and, it needs to be usable in a way that is, like, cypherpunk friendly. Right? So what that means is it needs to be possible for you to just go use Ethereum, do Ethereum things without having to, like, go create an account at some third party service

[01:37:40] and, like, basically go through centralized intermediaries. Right? It needs to be possible for you to use the use the chain directly, to use the chain with privacy, to use the chain in a way where you're actually verifying that you're getting the correct chain. And these are all things that we're really taking into account in Ethereum's scaling road maps, the road map for the accounts

[01:38:06] model, the, like, quantum resistance security, like, consensus, all of these different things. Right? Then the second question is, well, if it's possible to do these things on Ethereum, right, then, like, you need to have people who are actually doing them. Right? Because by default, it's a lot of developers' instincts to just say, okay. I'm going to write an application in the web two way. That application is going to, like, call like, make 100 calls to different

[01:38:38] web to, you know, like, APIs. And then, like, fifty fifty different servers are going to find out, like, who each user is immediately. Right? And, also, you know, like, the application, like, it might require some, like, going through, you like, servers to log in. The, yeah, application, you know, like, might require

[01:39:03] trusting the server for every, for everything to be secure. And so even though the blockchain doesn't need you to trust, the application still does. Right? And so, like, we need to continue to make it easier and to, like, build up this community of people. They'll build we're working on these best practices so that, like, actually decentralized applications are feasible for people to make, and we know how to make them as a a very high standard of quality. Right? And, like, one of the ways that I measure this is, what I call the walk away test, which is basically, yeah, if you have an application,

[01:39:41] then imagine if the developers suddenly all got hit by a bus, their servers suddenly disappeared. Then, what, like, what guarantee is what a user still have? Would a user be able to keep using the application? Ideally, yes. If, like, every single tool that you would buy a hundred years ago passes the full walk away test. Right? And I think over the last thirty or forty years, we lost a lot of that. Right? And we have a lot of these applications where, like, the manufacturer can turn them off remotely. Or if the manufacturer goes bankrupt,

[01:40:17] then, like, something in the machine actually depends on calling the manufacturer every seven days, and then, oops, like, it stops working. Right? And so we're trying to, like, really get back to, you know, the best parts of the, yeah, like that earlier era. We have the clawed tech giants to just collect all your data. Indeed. And, you know, a hundred years ago, your car did not collect any of your data.

[01:40:41] Two hundred years ago, your horse, I mean, your horse collected your data, but, like, what would the horse do with it? Okay. Yeah. But, basically yeah. And then the other and so, like, the the ideal is if if if the developers all disappear, if the servers all disappear, you could keep using it. If you don't if you can't do that, the second best is

[01:41:07] there need to be at least easy channels for people to go manually get their money out. Right? Like, what we what we call escape hatches to manually send like, even if your users have, like, coins inside of an application inside your application, they need ways to be able to, like, get those coins out of that application, and they get get those coins out of your system. Right?

[01:41:31] And these are things that, like, a lot of the platforms built on top of Ethereum have already thought through and, already can do. Right? But, like, these are things that we have to continue building on. Yeah. But the world is changing, radically. Now everything is software service software as a service. So, now nowadays,

[01:41:53] the software is programming on your computer, but it's a service that they can stop. And also people, read books on Amazon Kindle so that books could disappear. And we listen to music on, Spotify so the music could, disappear. Yeah. And we need to reclaim the I I I usually have songs as m p three files.

[01:42:16] Yeah. That's, you know, you still you know, files, they exist. M p three is, you know, TXT is Yeah. You know, file files are good. The other nice thing about having a, you know, a TXTs is that you can push them through local AI and convert them into m p threes so you can listen to them. And so, you know, there's a lot of advantages

[01:42:39] to having everything locally in these, like, data formats that you control. So can we just act to pass the walk away test by using the local first applications alone? Or Yeah. We need something anything else?

[01:43:04] For app use cases that are personal, then, yes. For use, for use cases that involve collaboration, like, that that this is where I think, like, it's, it gets more tricky. Right? So, like, for for example, right, one of, like if you think of, like, messaging apps, right, is, like, one simple example. Right? Like, something like signal.

[01:43:33] Signal and I think it kind of passes the walk away test because message like, if signal suddenly disappears, then I have the app on my machine. You have the app on your machine. And, like, at least the our data is still there. And, like, you can export the data, and, you know, you can do, like, SQL stuff, like, to extracts the messages, extracts the pictures. Like, I I've done this. Right? And,

[01:43:59] you know, like like, your data is still yours. But the problem is without the signal servers, we can't talk to each other. Right? And it's even worse because, you know, because we're not in contact, we don't we would not have a way even to contact each other once just to switch to a different messenger. Right? And so this is one of those, reasons why yeah. I mean, I think there's several reasons why we wants to go beyond, like, signal style end to end encryption. And, look, we want actually have more decentralized messengers.

[01:44:32] One reason is this. Right? Basically, yeah, that you wants to have something where even if all existing servers shut down, someone else can spin up a new server. And, like, you can ideally automatically connect to it, and we can continue talking to each other. Right? But the other big reason is metadata privacy. Right? So, basically, yeah, when,

[01:44:56] if I send a message to you by signal, then the signal servers, they still see when they sense the message, who sent the message to whom. They, if we send five messages, they can see there's a delay of two seconds here. There's delay of five seconds here. There's a delay of one second here. Like, these are all signals that can be put into very powerful AI models, and it can be used to analyze, you know, who we are, what are we talking about,

[01:45:24] like, what kind of conversation are we having. Right? Like, you can you can learn a lot of scary things from, small amounts of information. And so we if we yeah. But then if you have a decentralized network, then, like, for example, the message would pass through five different servers run by different people before it gets, it gets to the destination.

[01:45:49] And, then as long as at least one of the servers is is, deleting all the information and it's not, like, secretly saving it, as long as at least one of the five servers is, then, well, like, the my privacy is fully safe. So, like, that this is one way in which you can use, you know, like, decentralization to get even stronger guarantees, and, we're passing the the walk away test, like, to to a much better degree at the same time. Sounds

[01:46:17] cool. So sounds interesting. Can you tell us more about the DACC things, idea of the what's the difference between the DACC and EACC? I guess I'm curious for you, like, do you understand EACC versus DACC? Actually, to be honest, I don't understand the e in effect. What the means the effectiveness

[01:46:47] in the e s s e s s. I think the guy just talk about is, hey, Justin need to accelerate. So yeah. I think that's a very kind of nearsighted about something. You just need exponential

[01:47:10] grow grow up curve. Nothing else. And that's what I understand about the ESA. So Mhmm. I can get the point with we need something else to Mhmm. Have a more whole picture of something. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I can fill in some history because I think the

[01:47:37] problem with these memes is that they yeah. Like, they're often people making fun of things that are themselves making fun of of other things, and there's, like, all of these layers. Right? So we start with effective altruism. Right? Effective altruism is this philosophy that says, look. We should try to be good to other people. We we should, like, try to be charitable,

[01:48:00] but we should try to do it in a way that's actually effective. Right? And so there's a lot of people who, like, you let's say a rich person who has, like, $15,000,000, they decide, I want to be nice, And then they go and, like, donate 50, yeah, $15,000,000 to, you know, like, some opera house in right in the middle of, like, some very rich city. And then which is, like, beautiful and some people enjoy it, but the problem is that exact same money could have literally saved 3,000 lives in a low income country. Right? And people don't really think about this. Yeah. You know, I don't realize that this is, the choice that they're making. And,

[01:48:38] like, there and and there isn't it's like like, there especially, like, ten or twenty years ago, there wasn't really much at all of people, like, really trying to be careful, of figuring out, like, which charities actually are extremely effective at helping people and which ones sound good, but they're not effective. Right? And, effective altruism, like, started with, like, doing all of this research,

[01:49:02] and then eventually it discovered that basically, yeah, if your goal is to save people's lives, then, like, antimalarial is one of the important causes, like, global public health, especially in low income countries, and then, like, what particular areas. Actually, even, like, just directly giving people money in, in very low income countries was also one of the relatively effective things, interestingly enough.

[01:49:28] And so it started with that. Right? But then over time, I feel like a big part of the community became convinced that the most important problem in, the world is making sure that AI goes well. Because if AI does not go well, then, like, a superhuman AI could basically yeah. And it could kill everyone in the same way that we killed, like, 75% of all species on Earth already. Right? And so, like, they basically,

[01:49:56] went down this rabbit hole of saying, well, okay. The most important problem is, making sure AI goes well. And, especially, yeah, as it becomes, like, close to superhuman in its intelligence. And we are so far apart away from even knowing what we're doing when we build AIs. And so, really, to make AI go well, we also have to slow AI down. Right? And

[01:50:23] then this, like, really, offended a lot of people in Silicon Valley because, like, they wants to make AI go fast. You know? They like capitalism. Like, you're supposed to accelerate scale quickly and make things go exponential, create human progress. And, like, it made a lot of people very unhappy. And it's

[01:50:45] and so there was this, like, movement called effective accelerationism, basically replace altruism with accelerationism. And, like, basically yeah. Was basically just like vibes. Basically saying, like, yeah. We should, like, we, like, we actually should not, like, overthink this AI problem so much when we know so little. We should just accelerate because acceleration

[01:51:08] actually, you know, like, is the thing that's done the most good the the most good in the past. Yeah. Give the execute to some the guy to make more money. Yes. And, yes, it's it gives excuses for Silicon Valley, like venture capital people to not feel guilty about making more money. And so

[01:51:31] like, that it got a lot a lot of support. And then DEAC is the one that I like, the thing that I proposed, which basically says, well, let's focus accelerating technologies that are, like, defensive. So in the sense of, I mean, like, technology is that inherently make the, make the world safer instead of making it more dangerous. Right? So if we're worried that

[01:52:01] AI is going to create bioweapons, let's, like, accelerate defenses against bioweapons, which, like, a lot of that already happened, because of COVID. And, actually, there was this, like, big tragedy where people temporarily got really excited about some very innovative and very effective ways about of, making us much more resistant to airborne disease. Like, basic a lot of it is, like, basically, you're

[01:52:26] the same thing to air and indoor air that we did to water in the nineteenth century and going from, like you know, we went from dirty water that gives gives everyone terrible diseases to having clean water, and, like, we should do the same thing to air. And, there were other ideas around, like, much more efficient testing, around, much more, efficient for ways to detect pandemics much earlier. Right? And,

[01:52:53] so one part of it is, like, defensive, and then the other part is, let's make technology as that are kind of decentralized and, democratizing. Right? So technology is where you're not making the world safe by saying give all of the power to me because I'm trusted and I can make you safe. Instead, you know, they, like, make people safe by empowering them. Right? And,

[01:53:17] like, this is something you can do in biotech, and a lot of the ideas I mentioned are. This is something you can do in, computing. Right? Like, you can improve computer security. Cryptography does this. You can do this in hardware. You can do this in social media, like, basically, yeah, give people better tools by which, you know, like, they, yeah, can make more sense of, everything that people are post

[01:53:43] are posting and, like, show them context, give them better ability to tell what's true and what's and what's false and what's trying to manipulate them. And so we should take all of these things and accelerate them and do this in an open way so that the whole world can can benefit from them. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. So I I think

[01:54:06] in the defensive aspect, maybe you can tell us more about what makes a technique to be offensive or defensive or the AI is like the biotech? Well, AI is interesting

[01:54:29] because it's both. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, you can use AI to create deepfakes. You can use AI to create scams and, like, distribute them at a a very mass scale. On the other hand, you can also use AI to create filters. You can use AI to, you know, like, locally, yeah, you know, like, filter

[01:54:52] message the messages that you see to help you identify, yeah, I mean, like, what things are trying to trick you, what thing what what things are real. You can also just use use AI for productivity. Then, you know, in the bio world, for example, like, there's actually generally

[01:55:14] a pretty clean split between, like, the kind of biotech that makes it easier to fight pandemics and the kind of biotech that makes it easier to create pandemics. And, actually, unfortunately, you know, like, people are continuing to do all of this crazy gain of function research even today. Right? And, like, I don't know. Like, all of us, like, really hate this, but it's still happening.

[01:55:39] And in computing, for example, right, there is, like, the scale of hacking computers, and then there is the scale of making inherently more secure operating systems. So it's like a very industry by industry, yeah, kind of judgment. So can can I say the cryptography technique is basically defensive? I think, yes. And can you,

[01:56:06] suggest some of the applications that Mhmm. People can use every day, which is, Cypherpunk or DX, favorite? Okay. So let's go, kind of industry by industry. Right? So if we start in biotech, I think it's I think it's important to talk about biotech too because, like, biotech is,

[01:56:31] it's very important. Health is very important. And at the same time, it's going to have more and more intersection with computing as, both become more powerful. So one is air filtering. Like, every room that people are in should have an air filter. So that's one. And, if you have good air filtering, then that massively reduces the chance that people give each other airborne diseases.

[01:56:55] And it's also just good for health in a lot of other ways. Then two, is also testing. Right? So there's, increasingly better, better tools that you can use at home to test, like, if you're feeling sick, what kind of diseases you might have. Like, there is literally, yeah, things that are being developed that are as high quality as PCRs

[01:57:22] that, you can literally breathe into, and it's at home. And a minute later, you can find out whether you have COVID or something else. So another one is just measurements. Right? So you can have an air quality meter, and these are, like, small devices. You can even walk around with them. That just tells you, like, what is the quality of air in any particular place. And,

[01:57:45] like, basically, you can even you know, you can go around and, like, basically be your own health and safety regulator. Right? And, you know, if you go to some place and you see that the numbers are bad, like, this is something you should complain about. Right? You can complain online, complain to your friends, complain to the complain to the manager, and, like, just we need to have this, like, movements of more people just making a noise about this.

[01:58:11] So that's, like, in biotech. In computing, I think one big thing is, like, is, using some of these, kind of encrypted and, you know, like, walk away friendly test, type of, tools. Right? So signal for messaging. Actually, Telegram, like, the like, they try to claim they're encrypted. They're not actually encrypted. Right? Like, it's like, they're they're not. And

[01:58:40] signal is encrypted. Then FileVerse, it's, an alternative to Google Docs, which is, ends to ends encrypted, and it's also, like, even already, like, at least partially decentralized. And so you can recover your documents even if the server disappears. You can use it offline. It's, very powerful. Then,

[01:59:03] I mean, there's, like, a lot of these individual things. Like, there's this alternative to Google Maps, that's called organic maps, which uses OpenStreetMap. And so you download the maps. It just does everything on your device. Like, Google doesn't doesn't always learn where you're going. GrapheneOS is a version of Android that has, like, higher levels of security. So it, like, does sandboxing for every application. So it basically does like, really reduces

[01:59:30] the permissions that every application has to see all of your other applications. And it lets you, like, give permissions to applications one file at a time. So that's, now it's only compatible with, Google Pixel phones, but the solution to that is still, like, have a Google Pixel phone. It even works with older ones. So that's also something I yeah. Like, it is also something that I recommend. Affected

[01:59:58] by the new Google policy about the Android? Right now, it's still fine. Yeah. So, like, I continue to I continue to use Graphene. It does not have any problems. I mean, social media, so, like, right now, I yeah. I mean, I think we currently don't have, like, a great social media, but I think if we want to improve our social media, my view is that the first step is more competition.

[02:00:29] And so I use this tool called Firefly, which is this multi client. It's a client of Twitter, Forecaster, Lens, Blue Sky at the same time. And so you could basically see, like, all of the major socials and post to all of the major socials at the same time. And so you can, like, explore the smaller ones at the same time as as being part of the bigger ones. And then also if you're accessing through Firefly,

[02:00:55] then, like, you're not, you know, like like, your your view of Twitter is not mediated by Elon's algorithms, and so you're gonna protect it there. Then for blockchains, I mean, I think, like, in Ethereum, the, like, I think the Ambuyer wallet is already high quality. It's, like, already very limited in terms of, like, the number of

[02:01:19] third like, calls to third party servers that it can makes. Someone actually tested, and they said, like, basically tested. Does this wallet keep working if you, like, add a firewall and you shut off all access except for an an Ethereum node that you run locally? And I think when this was run, Ambuyer was the only wallet that passed. And within the foundation, we're working on this fork of Ambuyer called Kohaku, which also adds different kinds of privacy support and, like, stronger,

[02:01:49] stronger forms of verification. So that's also happening. So recommends that. Also, Gnosis Safe. Basically, yeah, if you have a larger amount of crypto funds, you should hold it in a multisig wallet so you have multiple keys. So there's no single key where if that key gets stolen, you lose your money, or if you lose your key, you lose your money. And, like, some of those keys, like, should, I think, even be held by other people. Right? And

[02:02:19] the and so, like, you should ideally, I think you should be in a situation where for large amounts of crypto, like, you do not even have the ability on hand to move that crypto outside immediately. Right? So that's also something I recommend. I think yeah. So what do you think the open source moment to the role? What's the role in Mhmm. Of the open source

[02:02:45] in in your recommendation? So open source is an essential part of being DEAG because if something is not open source, you cannot verify how it works. And so that is like an extra point of trust. Right? It's also essential for walk away text. Yes. Because, if the developers disappear, then, like, someone else needs to be able to come in and fix and, fix any bugs and continue improving it.

[02:03:15] So are there what what are your favorites, either open source or Deac or Cypherpunk tools? Anything that I have not mentioned yet? Yeah. I I I will recommend using a local AI model. Mhmm. Yeah. That that will help a lot. Same. Yeah. And let's take some questions from our audience, and please ask something about cyberpunk.

[02:03:39] Really? Yeah. I have I have two related questions actually. Mhmm. And My question is this this privacy decentralization and data permanence naturally take more computation than when it has less privacy, decentralization and etcetera. And

[02:04:03] the second question, if it does have a formal proof then where where do you draw the line where like it's efficient enough for for people to be able to use and more yeah. Where it's practical and, where people can use it scalably. I think in my experience, like, the

[02:04:26] they're like, with with a lot of these technologies, they're pretty quickly comes a point where the biggest inefficiency is not, like, technological weakness that comes with cryptography. The bigger inefficiency becomes user experience. And I think encryption was there for a very long time. I think zero knowledge proofs are basically already there. Like, they're finally efficient enough that that's, that that's the, like, the problem right now. Right? Because right now, on my computer, right, a z case and arc takes about

[02:04:58] one seconds to generate, but it takes, like, one minute to, like, go through the complicated railway UI. Right? And so and then and then, like, if you if you look at file verse, I think it's, like the, yeah, cryptography parts are not really yet adding much complexity. Often, decentralization parts add more complexity because it's, like, harder to make something that's decentralized

[02:05:23] and, like, stable, but it's improving. Right? And then what I find happens is that the quality of these pieces of software, like, it slowly improves. And as it improves, like, number of bugs goes down, features get added, it becomes acceptable for more and more people, and that's how these things, like, slowly become mainstream. Right? And so I think, like, this is happening. This happens to signal over the last ten years. I think this happens to file over SNL where, like, I think this year, it's like on like, reaching that point where I would feel comfortable just, I mean, I already feel comfortable giving a file versus documents to a nontechnical person to read. And,

[02:06:04] it's reaching the points where I'd feel comfortable, like, suggesting that a nontechnical person, uses file verse to write. For, like, blockchain tools, so, you know, I think it's, like, kind of in the middle. I think for privacy, I believe this year, will, it will cross that gap where, like, it becomes a default and, that the difference in extra effort doesn't matter much. So I think it really, yeah, it depends on each application.

[02:06:31] Thank you so much. Can I have, like, one little question? So about the cost, like, how do you convince more people to use it if it costs more and and it takes more more time to to get, acquainted with? I think it all depends on, like, how much more cost and how much more time. Right? Because, if the difference is small,

[02:06:54] then, like, people are able to get used to it and then start note and then not notice it. Right? If the and then often it's easier if on top of, like, just being more private, you also offer new features that's, like, the the existing versions did not have before. But, like, I remember for me, for example, when I started using Linux, right, which I was, you know, like, the free and open operating

[02:07:19] system. Actually, like So Yeah. What what's the distribution here? Actually, recently, I switched from, Ubuntu to Arch. But okay. Like, I'll tell you one way in which Linux is just obviously better than Windows today. When you install Windows for the first time, there's, like, basically no way to install it without, connecting to the Internet and adding a Microsoft account.

[02:07:43] This was not true ten years ago. This is, like, a new dystopian terrible thing that they just added recently. Right? Linux, no no bullshit. Like, you just install it. You can install like, if you're in a submarine at the bottom of the Mariana Trench, you can install Linux. Right? Yeah. So this is, like, a big but ten years ago, I remember the, like, the one very practical advantage of Linux that attracted me was workspaces.

[02:08:10] There was this concept where, like, inside of your desktop, you could have sort of four, like, or whatever number of virtual desktops, and you can, like, basically, very quickly, like, click to switch from one to the other. And this just made it much more convenient for me to move between different applications than Windows. And this is something that, like, Windows could have added. Right? But they didn't. And, you know, like, the fact that Linux did actually, like, made me like, helped make me, yeah, you know, a very loyal fan who would then not be willing to switch back, like, very early. Right? So Even in the gaming space, the original Windows space, the Linux experience is more much better now.

[02:08:49] Thank you so much. Any other question on Cypherpunk? Hello, Vitalik. So, like, I would like to preface this question by saying I'm also a Chinese Canadian, so we do benefit a lot from our passports. And, also that that my my partner and I bought, like, a property in this small town called Hagon in China.

[02:09:19] It's only 5,000 Canadian. And living there actually made me think a lot about how, like, a lot of these real world problems stem from stem from asymmetric risks. Because the reason why, like, the property is as cheap as it as it is right now is because a little bit history, like, it was a resource

[02:09:44] rich city, but it was depleted. And the residents have to bear the risk of, like, the real estate collapse. Right? So once again, to so so, like, my question here because I know you're a tech person, but, like, you're becoming increasingly this symbol for, like, this cyberpunk movement. So, like, you sorta have to, I guess, bear the political burden of some of the things that you think about.

[02:10:09] So, like, one thing I wanna ask you is, like, who do you think bears the risk while we continue to stake ourselves to our belief, whether that's Ethereum, cyberpunk, or going fast and breaking things? And why us? So, like, there's this Chinese co term called. Right? So why us? In in other words, like, why do we deserve to travel around the world going to places, especially, like, third world countries

[02:10:34] for arbitrage. Right? And building these virtual ideals and staking our claim on our version of freedom. Right? Because, like, I think cyberpunk movement is becoming more political. So this is the kind of questions that I'm curious what your mind's at at this point. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, for me, this is,

[02:10:58] also at the core of, you know, like, why, yeah, both open source and, like, even taking a lot of these, like, active efforts to build to build community is so important. Right? Is that, like, actually, yeah, everyone is is more protected when these kinds of, technologies can be widely used by more people. Actually, this is something that's, like, fundamental to,

[02:11:26] an like, anonymization. Right? Is that if you have an anonymization tool that's only used by a thousand people, then if someone sees that you use someone used the tool, they already know that there was, like, 1,000 plus people that it possibly could have been. And then they only needs to know, like, one or two extra things, and then they can figure out that it's you. Right? And so increasing usage and, like, making these things broadly, yeah, useful and, even like, by, yeah,

[02:11:52] normal people, I was, like, actually, yeah, pretty, yeah, pretty important for the, yeah, for the success. Right? And you know, and and I think it's, something that's, like there there there's all this all this, you know, like, question of, like, what kinds of risks are we, yeah, actually trying to mitigate. Right? And there's, like, lots of people

[02:12:18] in the world who have very different kinds of risks that they're dealing with. Right? And sometimes it's like enthusiasts and people who don't have much risk yet, but they believe in the ideas. Sometimes it's, you know, like, people who, like, actually have some physical risk of being attacked. Right? Like, there was a there was recently this, situation where

[02:12:41] the there was, like, an insider in the French tax authority who, got bribes to, like, reveal information, and he revealed addresses of wealthy Bitcoin holders. And then that information was used to kidnap and extort money from people. Right? Also, like, I personally talk to people who use things like graphene and, signal who are political activists,

[02:13:06] you know, like people in in in including, you know, like, in Russia, for example, in, other countries as well. This is something that's for people as, like, actually, you know, reducing risk that they go to jail. I there's also people for whom, like, a lot of these things are just global economic opportunity. Right? Because

[02:13:31] there are a lot of the centralized Internet is, like, very country locked. And, you know, I guess, like, Chad GPT, it's not even usable inside China right now. Right? It's and that's actually not even because of the Chinese firewall. Right? That's, you know, because of, the, you know, like, you know, like, Chad GPT side policy. Right? There are a lot of financial things that vary dependent on which country you're from. A lot of

[02:13:57] and and the Internet, like, if you, if you log on to the Internet from the wrong country, you have to, like, go through 10 CAPTCHAs every time you do something. Right? And, like, these, like, the a lot of these kind of open, you know, like, properties of these technologies also inherently make them more accessible. And to me, one of the aspects of, making all of this successful is,

[02:14:23] like, actually building tools that are, like, concretely successful to people who have all, all of these kinds of needs. And that's like, this is actually one of those things that I think, look, the the blockchain space often struggles with. Right? Like, I think it succeeded well for the use case of moving money around, and, like, it's a lifeline for a huge number of people. But then if you try to move beyond that, then it's, like,

[02:14:47] basically, this, you know, like, tool that's, only a few people use, and they're not actually even gaining freedom. They're just, like, gaining the hope that numbers go up more. Right? And, like, actually, with some of these newer applications, the fact that they're actually providing these, stronger properties is something that really matter, matters. Right? And so I think, you know, these are all things that are important to continue working on.

[02:15:26] Right. Yeah. Then this is true. Mhmm. Yeah. And next question. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because on as you guys mentioned, lots of about the applications about how ordinary people can use to pro protect their privacy. Right? But in China, like, for example, I live in Shenzhen Mhmm. And every house have a QR code to manage the people. So

[02:15:52] advertising about the Cyberpunk, this idea, and but I I I just think about why why what what the situation I live. So I I see, like, the signal this app cannot change the the the the situation I live. So I I wonder if you guys have some otherwise about how can I better to provide my privacy?

[02:16:28] Yeah. I mean, I will say that, like, physical privacy is just fundamentally a much harder problem than digital privacy. Right? It's a I mean, it is our like, it it's actually, yeah, pretty scary how, like, easy it is to accidentally leak information. Right? Because right now, like, probably, yeah,

[02:16:51] if if someone had a microphone outside of this window, like, they would be able to hear someone typing on a keyboard and, like, potentially even pick up their password. Right? And, this is, I mean, the the this is challenging. And, like, I think, I mean, like, even in situations where it's difficult to have, much privacy, like, having at least being able to have at least some is important. And, of course, it's,

[02:17:18] important for that to actually be meaningful. And, you know, the yeah. Like, the digital piece is, like, I think it's it is still a piece that is very yeah. I mean, it it's very important, just, because, like, your digital activity is something that, like, potentially, yeah, anyone in the whole world could be, yeah, could be interested in and could even use to kind of, like, digitally exploit you.

[02:17:46] But, I mean, for the physical case, like, this is something that's, like like, when I talk to people who, think about this, problem, I remember I was on this panel with this, you know, like, science fiction author who has thought about, like, privacy type topics for a bit. And the conversation always just starts with, like, we're very it's it's very hard, and we've fallen behind so much already.

[02:18:12] And so it's, it's one where I like this, you know, this space is definitely further about further behind than than thinking about anything digital. And the place that I would start is, just, like, actually thinking about kind of, like, what what even are the goals that you want to, begin with. Right? Because, like, I think in the digital world, the goals are, like, kind of easy to understand. Right? Like, I want to be able to talk to my mom where where only I and my mom, she actually can can see the messages that we're exchanging. Right? And, like, this is a a clear goal that you can understand, and it's clear that, like, you can actually achieve it by, yeah, you know, like, using, like, the things like signal. Right? But the like, what, like, what are equivalents of this in the physical world? I think the answer for this is also going to be, yeah, very different in different countries. Right? Like, what are the goals and what are and what are the targets? And it's important

[02:19:11] to start thinking about more. Thank you. Mhmm. So Can we can we have the digital privacy when we in the breakout time? Mhmm. Like in the Myanmar or the Iran? No. I mean, is a in in a a challenging case. Right? Because right now, there's the the blackout happening. We are basically yeah. Like, a lot of people use Starlink, and this is their lifeline to access the global Internet. But then the government is, like, basically putting powerful jamming machines and, like, most of the time right now, it's successfully able to prevent these Starlink connections from happening. And there are, like, instances where people are able to get online, like, briefly for, like, short to, like, medium periods of time. But, like, even then, like, only some people. Right? And, only for, like, short, like, short amounts of time. And,

[02:20:11] like, that's it. Right? And so they are, like, it's not even about just a matter of privacy. It's, like, just a matter of access. Right? And, like, just access is something that's, also also so important. Right? And a lot of the time, like, if you can, I mean, you can provide access, that's, something that already, yeah, gives people very meaningful benefits? Right? Like, people in

[02:20:40] those places, they need the ability to organize. They I mean, they do need the ability often to, like, to protect their assets. Right? Because, you know, the banking systems are unreliable or, you know, like, the dollars, like, the the local currencies keep keep hyperinflating or it can be seized or anything can happen to it. So it's

[02:21:03] like, there's definitely a, like, a lot of specific things that you can do. Let's take two last questions. Question. Question. Question, please. I think he he's I I know I know you are against the AI. Mhmm. But is it possible to decentralize LLM? Because I really cannot live with no. No. Please.

[02:21:28] I I really cannot live without LLM because it helps me with mundane task Mhmm. Make my life easier. Everything is much more smoother, and I'm I'm much more productive in my work as a researcher when I get LLM. You know? Yeah. I mean, so the easiest way is to run AI locally. Right? And that works for small models. That works for, like, meet for some, like, medium models, but not the very big ones.

[02:21:53] Right now, there isn't, like the best thing you can do to bigger open models is, you can run them inside of, like, inside of a trusted execution environments, and there's, like and, like, the security of those things is, like, kind of sketchy and they keep getting broken, but it's still, like, much better than not having one. Right? And there's providers that are doing that.

[02:22:18] Then if you want to use the closed models, then, like, the best you can get in terms of privacy is, of course, to, like, access them, you know, like, what like, with an accounts that you get that that you get anonymously, which is, like, something you can do with OpenRouter if you just, like, keep creating new addresses and funds them with Railgun. But, like, even that's very imperfect because it's easy to gather a lot of information about you after, even a few queries.

[02:22:47] So, I mean, like, all of that. Like, there is a very active open local online ecosystem, but it does really needs to improve more. It's hard to quantify. It depends on the use cases. Right? For some use cases, it's basically, like, top of the line already. Oh. But only for the basic ones. Right? Like like, things like translation,

[02:23:13] transcription, a lot of, like, local, like, for, like, assistance stuff, text to speech. Like, local alarms are totally fine for that. There's no reason to call into service for it. Actually, even the main a lot of the mainstream stuff, like, even, like, Apple use a lot of, like, local models for this already. So but then I like, one of my views is that if we want so local models are inherently going to be much smaller than the centralized ones. Right? If we want that space to be competitive,

[02:23:43] the the advantage you have to lean on is that local models are more friendly to fine tuning. Right? And so, like, we need, like, a much better, I think, fine tuning ecosystem even, like, personal fine tuning tools that, try to make fine tuning more useful. Oh. I think this is a very cool idea. Yeah. And we we should decentralize the fine tuning and also make it more Mhmm. And and we can also prove that it's fine tuning with such such data. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Alright. So that gentleman?

[02:24:15] Yeah. Thank you for being the last one. So Mhmm. Hi, Vittadek. Yeah. So I my last question is actually very realistic. So because I've been investing into, like, privacy protocols for the past eight years into a lot of, like, new early projects. And I think everyone in the room, we all love privacy, but if you go out on the street, you're asking, like, random people or Mhmm. Your, like, friends now in web three Mhmm. I think a lot of people find privacy

[02:24:44] irrelevant. So which means that they don't wanna pay any extra, like, dollar or, like, time for exchange for privacy. So my question is, how much percentage of the population do you think is the ultimate adopter of the privacy? Or in other words, do you believe that our ending game will, like, will be in a parallel world where,

[02:25:11] like, 10 of people, will adopt privacy at a premium, and other 90% of people will just, like, give up their privacy in exchange for, like, cheaper, like, service or providers. Yeah. So I think, one piece of good news is that, like, that is changing. Right? So I think one kind of mistake that people make thinking about privacy is that they think that, like, privacy is inherently

[02:25:37] anti institutional and, I mean, like, that the government will oppose. And so if you're choosing it, you're inherently fighting the government and all of these things. And increasingly, like, that's not true. Right? So, like, for example, the European Union has huge amounts of privacy, like, regulation. Right? And, like, a lot like, a lot of that is even counterproductive. Right? It just requires people to click buttons more. Right? But there are, like, even US

[02:26:05] government just use a signal. Yes. The US government uses signal. Yes. But, you know, even at the highest levels of the, you know, like, the the EU, for example, there's a lot of desire to not have all of their data be snooped on by, you know, like, The US and Palantir and all of those entities, for example. Right? And, like, actually, recently, they've started pushing,

[02:26:28] like, officially, pushing open source with the goal of, increasing their technological and, like, data sovereignty. So, like, Eve and then in companies, a lot of companies have company policies that, like, strictly control, you know, like, where data can be copied to, what applications you can use for data, like, protection purposes. So

[02:26:52] these are, like, things that, a lot of institutions are willing to care about. And, like, basically, yeah, is afraid of their data being snooped on by someone. Right? And, I think, the the the way that adoption works, it's the like, we need to have an enthusiast community. Right? Like, we need to have this early adopter community that's really

[02:27:21] interested in these tools that's, you know, like, is excited about, like, going up to this higher level of privacy, security, openness, and, like, chooses things on this basis as even willing to accept some inconvenience. And then when these things become mainstream, realistically, yeah, it's not the people that are doing the most work. It would be institutions doing the most work. Right? Like, like, even including

[02:27:47] mainstream companies. Right? One thing that I, recently, yeah, I mean, like, saw on on, like, my travels to Europe is that, like, there's literally NordVPN being advertised at in person stores. Like and so, like, these, like, even, I mean, like, in institutions, like, these kinds of things are happening. Right? And so that

[02:28:11] is something that you know, like, I think we, yeah, do need to kind of avoid falling into the trap of saying, you know, we are against all institutions. Like, we do need to, I think, like, be willing to kind of cooperate with people and, like, understands that these these kinds of alignments exist. And, like, that's also a really effective way of, like, actually making sure that

[02:28:35] many millions of people gets to benefit from all of these things. And and I think HTTPS is one of the a very good example of, adoption of the, cryptographic protocols. Yeah. We can take one last question. Yep. The Hi.

[02:28:58] Yeah. My name is Matthew. I should, preface this by saying I'm actually cofounder of a educational startup. But we could maybe argue that traditional education is, like, kind of centralized with one perhaps one curriculum and one one truth. And I'm wondering in the in the current environment where people are becoming more

[02:29:21] pushed to the fringes into their own echo chambers and with AI taking the lead in in in knowledge acquisition and things like STEM, if we should be more focused or our education should be more focused on, teaching people to better understand each other. Yeah. And I think

[02:29:48] one of the, like, big problems in our society is that we have this philosophy of education where you're in this, like, centralized but also, like, very well curated environment up until age 18 and then sort of maybe age 22. And then you flip over into, you know, the real world, and then suddenly, like, that all goes goes down to zero. Right? And you're basically on your own, and you're absorbing information

[02:30:14] often from people whose interests are very misaligned with you. Right? And especially as technology is improving, like, people's need to continue learning throughout their whole life, increases. And so trying to, like, create more opportunities to, like, help people learn skills to give, to, you know, teach people new things in

[02:30:38] and to have that be kind of, like, administered and run by people where, like, both as a user, you have a lot of choice and also the peep like, the the people creating things by default have, like, motivations that are at least, like, more aligned with, pro social goals. I think it's, absolutely something that we need more of. Cool. Yeah. Thank you. Thank

[02:31:02] you. Thank you, friends, Vitalik. And thank you, Chris. Thank you. Okay. So we're closing this session. And just a few quick notes. First is about the food. We do have some food, longevity food dinner over there. It's not a full dinner. We only prepared around 60 people. So

[02:31:28] you're free feel free to grab something, but if you can't just don't grab a full portion. This is meant to be now from six to 07:00. It's a free share session where you guys can eat, drink, talk, stay as long as you want. So there's no formal structure now and use the time to continue your conversation, question, meet new people, and connect in this ecosystem.

[02:31:50] And later in the evening at 7PM, we're gonna have a film screening here, and there'll be a Sundance selected documentary called The Cleansers. And this is not a film about social media moderation. It's a film about power censorship, invisible labor, and governance, which we talked earlier today. So behind every so called automated platform, they're real human making impossible decisions, deciding what stay visible, what disappears, and who bears the psychological cost. For a community that's care about decentralization,

[02:32:20] separate from values and system design, this is a conversation we cannot avoid. So the screening is 07:00 and, yeah, you guys can feel free to find some drink and food. And thank you for doing it together Tuesday. If you want, just join the summit, tomorrow is a hackathon. Thank you, guys. Hi,

[02:38:06] everyone. Welcome to forces curtain. Nowadays, we provide Brown Jones' blueprint, longevity recipes every day for the lunch and dinner. And for today, we prepare blueprint meal, print green smoothie, Chao Pao stew and Chao Pao rice, black lantern, and olive salads.

[02:38:28] And feel free to, eat the food here. And if you are interested with longevity community, you can scan hope to participate with us. Thank you. Enjoy your dinner. Will you? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that.

[02:41:20] It's hard to do this all on my own. I need a sound engineer. If anyone's watching, I need a sound engineer. I need someone to give me a team because I can't do this all on my own

[02:41:43] and make good music. But let's try it now. I'll send it as I always send it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yep.

[02:43:52] Just don't think I can do the streaming thing as a musician. Just can't get it all on my own. We

[02:45:35] should only wage war, but the flies and love, all in it that he's been hit guard in. It's not just a place for fun. Centralized permissionless in all that and salt. Even the layout one as a shield and the lay do as I

[02:47:01] title. That's why we have such fertile soil to grow strong and bold as equal in life. Here in Fennig. Got it. Let's grow solid you.

[02:50:30] Have to fight a war. And now you see the plastic eye.

[02:53:27] It's choking out breath. Now you see protection on this earth must be collaboration of every nation. Woah. Woah. Bandit. Share as well.

[03:00:06] Well. We can build it up like me

[03:00:36] at work. We share as well. Is the food gone?

[03:10:45] One second. Adios. Aloha, friends.

[03:11:09] Blessings from you, Chiang Mai. Bye, TK. Thank you for your time. See you at the summit on the hackathon tomorrow at the hackathon at Chiang Mai University. We'll be streaming. So bye. Good night.